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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 13:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sounds more like an anti-social guy with a routine rather than a botter if he reacted that quickly after facing a real threat... I mean, rats are weak enough where yeah, a high end miner can just shrug them off, so them not defending themselves isn't actually all that surprising. Could be a botter who kept nearby his computer though, but I wouldn't jump to this assumption unless the time between his warps was pretty even.
TL;DR: A bot isn't just someone with a routine and doesn't respond to you.
Although yeah, really should get a wardec refund in this situation. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
138
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 08:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:It's not surrender ... bla bla bla. Yes, it is. You declare war - they disband. It is a reaction on your declaration and it is a surrender. You are quite an annoying whiner for a Goon. What is wrong with you?
Not exactly a surrender if all they do is immediately reform soon after quite often. Does not really make for a good argument at all regardless of what side of the fence you're on :/ |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 08:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Not exactly a surrender if all they do is immediately reform soon after quite often. Does not really make for a good argument at all regardless of what side of the fence you're on :/ That is just you. It is not different from surrendering to 5 wars simultaneously either. When you then do not like it then find someone else. Insisting to fight a specific target is just dumb and stupid, and riding on it for the sake of an argument can only have one goal - to harass specific players. When people do not want to fight then they do not want to fight. Get it into your head. Should the game ever change and the targets then decide to fight you back and then suddenly kick your arse will you be again crying on the forum. This time then about how you cannot get out of war or how this is now all unfair. It is not them who cry about some mechanics, you know?
Fairness is a two way street, not one. While it wouldn't be fair to go all hardcore on the mechanic, its also not fair for someone to spend 50 million for absolutely nothing of value to happen at all. Disband, reform, and all that happened is the aggressor lost 50 mil. I'm sorry, I'm against what a lot of the guys who want to expand wardecs are saying too, but ignoring this factor is just being self centered. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 09:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
The difference is that one involves skill, the other doesn't, which completely kills the argument you were trying to make from the first sentence. Your efforts make or break that 30-40m. If you lose a lot of money during the war from losses, that's because of your own failings, or the other side catching you with your pants down. Different situation here. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 09:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:The difference is that one involves skill, the other doesn't, which completely kills the argument you were trying to make from the first sentence. Your efforts make or break that 30-40m. If you lose a lot of money during the war from losses, that's because of your own failings, or the other side catching you with your pants down. Different situation here. No. I can lose billions on the market, too. Those 30m-40m ISKs do not give me anything.
And you'd be losing it due to your own doing. Your comparison would be like saying losing 30-40m gambling is the same as it using it to buy something, but instead of being given what you paid for, the seller runs away with the dough. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 09:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Psychotic Monk wrote:Yes, you paid the broker fee and you got to make your order. How would you feel about it if you paid your broker fee and the order wasn't created? And then you paid it again and the order wasn't created? And you paid it as many times as you could and the order was created maybe one time in twenty? Nonsense. You declare war and you have your war just like I get my order onto the market. Whatever happens then is in the hands of other players. I cannot make them sell to me or buy from me. If I cancel the order will I also not get the fee back. It is the same in many places and it is called an ISK sink.
Its not only in the hands of other players. There's a certain skill to it, otherwise it wouldn't be profitable and you wouldn't be doing it as it'd be too unpredictable. Wardecs only fall under that classification as long as they last, and generally for you to drop your order, someone would have had to of likely spent money in a way that pushed you in that direction, in otherwords its still a competition, and essentially gambling. Someone disbanding an hour into a war only to reform isn't you getting the war. Hiding in a station isn't you getting the war. I don't encourage preventing people from leaving, or anything along those lines, but they sure as hell should be getting their ISK back. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 09:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Market broker fees - similar to stock market. You pay a broker to help you buy some stock, and to make a profit you have to also take into account your broker fees. Or it could be taxes, or whatever.
War decs don't sound like anything remotely close to that. They're not comparable just because they cost money. The fact you're even trying to is frankly just as absurd as the arguments for individual war decs.
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Its not only in the hands of other players. There's a certain skill to it, otherwise it wouldn't be profitable and you wouldn't be doing it as it'd be too unpredictable. ... And it is the same with war-decs. If you declare war on a 1-man noob corp with no war history and expect to get a fight, then frankly, do you lack skill.
Noooot even close. Especially if say its 1-man noob vs 1-man noob and the defender still bails out. Skill had nothing to do with the bailout. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:asteroidjas wrote:100% SAFE instantly by quiting to an NPC corp simply not true, you can still shoot them. there's NOTHING stopping you shooting them, not a single thing.
Actually, technically any sort of deterrent DOES stop people. That's what a deterrent is. Now granted, it doesn't stop EVERYBODY, but to say nothing is stopping them is flat out wrong. It'd be like saying the law doesn't stop someone from stealing. Doesn't stop everyone, but stops some.
Whitehound wrote:You are then misled in your beliefs when you think you need to punish others for not fighting you, but rather do you need to get away from it and to find a target who wants to fight and who you can fight. The sooner you learn who you can and cannot fight the better for you and all of us.
Frankly there's no reason to punish the aggressor for people not fighting them either... not that you agree since apparently you think something like the stock/commodities market is the same thing, but whatever. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Aren Madigan wrote: it doesn't stop EVERYBODY. so. they aren't 100% safe, is what you're saying.
Yeah, saying that much is accurate at least. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Frankly there's no reason to punish the aggressor for people not fighting them either... not that you agree since apparently you think something like the stock/commodities market is the same thing, but whatever. No, not only do I disagree, but I will not ever agree to a logic where an aggressor considers himself punished for an instant win, but chooses to think it is a punishment. It is outright stupid.
Technically the defender is the one the won as they did more ISK damage and lost nothing beyond what it cost to make a new corp. So its more an instant loss. |
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Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Frankly there's no reason to punish the aggressor for people not fighting them either... not that you agree since apparently you think something like the stock/commodities market is the same thing, but whatever. No, not only do I disagree, but I will not ever agree to a logic where an aggressor considers himself punished for an instant win, but chooses to think it is a punishment. It is outright stupid. Technically the defender is the one the won as they did more ISK damage and lost nothing beyond what it cost to make a new corp. So its more an instant loss. No. You are in high-sec and have to pay CONCORD to look away. This is your very own bill you need to pay if you want to fight wars in high-sec. You can always move out into low- and null-sec, but high-sec is high-sec and there is a good reason for it.
And nothing you said was an argument against my previous statement. "no" isn't a good enough reason. Its money lost they had zero opportunity to get back. No, your market transactions aren't similar to this. Your sell orders take this into account if you want to profit and hell, its your choice to pull out of an order in the first place. You could always just leave it with the assumption that it'd drop back to that price eventually, you just end up getting impatient. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:And nothing you said was an argument against my previous statement. I cannot help you when you are too blind to see the obvious. High-sec is the high security space where players get protection. This includes protection from players with your mindset.
I believe you've missed the part where I was against expanding wardecs. But hey, whatever floats your boat. You want to resort to personal attacks, that's your problem. There's plenty of ways to provide protection without being a total **** to one side. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 21:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:And nothing you said was an argument against my previous statement. I cannot help you when you are too blind to see the obvious. High-sec is the high security space where players get protection. This includes protection from players with your mindset. I believe you've missed the part where I was against expanding wardecs. But hey, whatever floats your boat. You want to resort to personal attacks, that's your problem. There's plenty of ways to provide protection without being a total **** to one side. Get out of high-sec. It just is not the fault of high-sec players when they do not want to fight, but it is your own when you can always go into low- or null-sec and fight your wars there, free from all CONCORD fees, and where players want you to come and to fight.
Now you're just not listening. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: Oh, I am listening, but I am also waiting for the truth to sink into your head.
Obviously not because you keep insisting that I want to be able to wardec anyone freely when I at no point suggested that. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote: Oh, I am listening, but I am also waiting for the truth to sink into your head.
Obviously not because you keep insisting that I want to be able to wardec anyone freely when I at no point suggested that. Am I? Or am I telling you that you are wrong in your belief of a fair war-dec? Tell me, when was EVE ever about fairness? At best does one get a fair chance on something. However, there has never been a guarantee on fair fights, fair costs, fair losses, or on anything else. Please, if you think I am wrong then show me where.
If you stop looking at fairness to some degree, it throws out any argument out the window. You could literally argue almost anything if you don't take that into consideration. You throw out all arguments for balancing. You throw out all arguments for even giving safety as that's based on fairness to a certain extent. Fairness isn't about everything always being good and dandy. Its about being reasonable. Nothing I suggested affects the safety of those who want to wardec avoid. They want to leave, let them, but for wardecs to work to their full intended extent, there needs to be both a reason NOT to leave, and also not to punish the aggressors just because someone chickens out. It isn't a win when someone "surrenders", causing you 50 million in wardec ISK damage to their, whatever the cost to form a corp is that I know is under that. And yes, I can be sure that they intend more with them than what is currently in place, just a read on them in the CSM minutes says that. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:If you stop looking at fairness to some degree, it throws out any argument out the window. Wrong. The more likely answer is that there have to be other reasons, only fairness is not one of them.
When you're talking about balance for example, fairness is pretty much the only reason for it. Balance happens because its unfair to pilots of other ships, or other classes if you go in reference to other games. Anyone could fly the unbalanced ships, but it forces you into a play style, which violates a sense of fairness. You can't ignore it when making a game if you want it to be any good. Otherwise you could use the excuse that "oh, its just superior technology." which would be the real world explanation for such a thing. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No. Ship balance is not about fairness, because we already have all different skill sets and we can fly different ships.
Ship balance is about the number of ships used in the game and the exact ruling by CCP when they consider a ship as imbalanced is entirely their decision.
How do you even get the idea that there is fairness involved in this? It is about CCP running a business and they are trying to keep it as rich in variety as possible so we can play with it as much and as long as possible without getting bored and thus keep paying them for it and in the end put food on their tables.
Better question is where did you get the idea that its about how many of a ship is being used and not about why the ship is being used so much? |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Better question is where did you get the idea that its about how many of a ship is being used and not about why the ship is being used so much? Firstly, because CCP has always made it about the numbers and secondly, because the ships have different roles. Say, do you expect a fight between a logistic cruiser and a combat/attack cruiser to be fair? Is a fight between an assault frigate and an interceptor fair? ...
You're looking at it from the wrong standpoint. There's two standpoints to look at it from... first off, if one logistics ship is by far completely above what all other logistics ships are capable of, performing so well that people call you an idiot if you use any other ship. Then there's the other standpoint. Which is a little tougher to explain. I suppose best I can think of if say spider tanking was so amazing that there was literally no other viable tactic from group fights. That's what balance is, it goes beyond being merely because a lot of people fly a certain ship. I mean, hell, in a well balanced game people could be flying it just because it looks the best appearence-wise. I highly doubt they would nerf a ship just because of that. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:You're looking at it from the wrong standpoint. No. You have the wrong standpoint. I only used it to show you that there is no fairness in balancing. QED. And you'd be full of it because I'm looking at it from the standpoint actually used. Popularity of a ship has nothing to do with why balance changes are made. Its the reason why the ship is popular that gets looked at. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 00:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ignoring the whole reason the Hulk and Hurricanes were popular in the first place. I'm not going to argue with someone using non sequitur. The Hulk was popular because it was by far the best mining ship, hands down, no question, it was the best. The others were brought up to par because they felt the Hulk was where they wanted mining ships in terms of overall ability. Hurricane was fairly similar. These are things CCP has in fact openly stated. And in fact has openly stated that there are balance issues in other ship types and tiers that they intend to address. In no part of their statements do they say "this ship is too popular, so we gotta change it." I mean, dear god.. REALLY? That's really how you think balancing works? I've never seen a more out of touch statement. Also your example has nothing to do with my belief of fairness, so doesn't require answering. I already stated my viewpoint about differing roles and how they apply to fairness. |
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Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 02:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Ignoring the whole reason the Hulk and Hurricanes were popular in the first place. I'm not going to argue with someone using non sequitur. The Hulk was popular because it was by far the best mining ship, hands down, no question, it was the best. The others were brought up to par because they felt the Hulk was where they wanted mining ships in terms of overall ability. Hurricane was fairly similar. These are things CCP has in fact openly stated. And in fact has openly stated that there are balance issues in other ship types and tiers that they intend to address. In no part of their statements do they say "this ship is too popular, so we gotta change it." I mean, dear god.. REALLY? That's really how you think balancing works? I've never seen a more out of touch statement. Also your example has nothing to do with my belief of fairness, so doesn't require answering. I already stated my viewpoint about differing roles and how they apply to fairness. Please, do go read the devblog by CCP Fozzie. He writes: CCP Fozzie wrote:...Finally we were thankfully able to resolve some of the outstanding balance issues with the two most problematic Battlecruisers (Drake and Hurricane)... And he further shows a picture of their popularity. Why do you think he does this? Is it pure coincidence when he says that there are "outstanding balance issues" and then shows a graph of their popularity where these two ships stand out?
Because generally its a sign that they're the more powerful ships of their class because if you read the REST of his post, he goes on to explain WHY things are in that state in some of the specifics of the battlecruisers. You're trying to take one piece of the puzzle out of context. That massive difference was a SIGN of the problem, not THE problem. You've got your cause and effect backwards. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 03:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Because generally its a sign ... You mean it is the evidence of the problem and without it would you not have a problem. Not how it works at all.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 03:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Because generally its a sign ... You mean it is the evidence of the problem and without it would you not have a problem. Not how it works at all. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He means that if you, as a game designer, think that something is overpowered, but none of the players are using it, there's probably some good reason that they're not using it that you haven't thought of, and that lack of use is actually evidence of it not being overpowered. The aggregate of the players is usually smarter at finding the best uses for things than the game developers. (Canonical example, Jetcan mining.)
Not necessarily. Sometimes there are limitations that reduce the number of players heading in that direction, sometimes its potential just hasn't been discovered yet. Now usually, yes, something being overpowered does trigger people heading in the direction of that particular thing, but its not something you take into itself. You look at WHY its happening though, but sometimes you can figure out a problem before it causes any substantial effect. Point is, he's treating the population shift as the cause for nerfs, not the effect that drew attention to the real cause. For example. In Warhammer Online, the brief time I played it, I chose a Chaos Chosen. It wasn't one of the most popular classes. In fact, far from it. However it had an ability that was so powerful, so ridiculous, despite not seeming as such at a glance, that when people started discovering it, it was rapidly changed before there was any significant population shift. Now obviously EVE is a different game, but that's ultimately the principle any balance changes are going to be based on. The shift is just a result of players discovering it long before you did and not changing it before it happens. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 04:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Not how it works at all. You called it is a sign. I call it evidence. Is your sign suddenly gone or why are you giving me nonsense?
Its not absolute evidence though. For example. Say a corp of 1000 joined and all on a whim decided, "hey, we're going to be a Gallente only corporation" and they start off ONLY flying Gallente ships. That's a population shift that wouldn't be able to applied to such statistics. Its not an unrealistic one either. Well, maybe not so much now, but still. There are lots of potential causes to population shifts. You're trying to use it as the sole factor to look at. You don't only look at one thing like that if you're using any kind of logical thinking. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 05:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
It used to be popular to believe the world was flat. They were wrong. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 06:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Regardless, popularity is one of the major metrics that CCP uses to detect imbalances, and rightly so, because nobody can perfectly weight every combination of incomparable stats, so the best you can do is find empirical evidence (i.e. usage statistics).
And yet Fozzie was able to pinpoint some of the reasons. Players are able to pinpoint why these things are better than others. The balance isn't off because the popularity. They become popular because the balance is off. Popularity is an effect, not a cause. Something can very easily become popular without being overpowered. For example. Almost every game with racial choices, the majority are human, regardless of any racial abilities, including ones where the racial clearly isn't the most powerful. From WoW to Star Trek Online, to even the D&D tabletop. Popularity is a hint at best. So what gets measured? Well, if you actually read Fozzie's blog that Whitehound posted, beyond just population levels, he tells you. He tells you why certain ships were the most popular. He tells you why the least popular Battlecruiser was unpopular. At no point did he say "we're changing this because of the population." In fact, lets quote what he said about the Prophecy...
Quote: It is no coincidence that the Prophecy is the least used Battlecruiser in the current meta. The combination of anemic damage and slow speed left the ship relegated to the role of obvious bait with the occasional creative fit that relied on the element of surprise rather than competitive performance.
The Prophecy was in dire need of a completely new role, and it has now found that role as the next step in the Amarr EmpireGÇÖs expanding drone carrier program. The energy weapon capacitor bonus is being replaced with a 10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level, and the drone bandwidth is being increased to 75mbit (equal to the current Myrm) with a giant 225m3 bay to hold a wide variety of drones in the tradition of Amarrian drone doctrine.
The Prophecy is also seeing two highslots removed to make room for an extra midslot and lowslot, and the addition of missile launcher hardpoints alongside the turrets to give plenty of fitting options for the creative pilot.
Notice the fact it was least used was only mentioned passingly. The real meat and damnation of what the issues were laid with its **** poor damage and speed. It was a bait ship. An easy target. Not competitive. They barely looked at its lack of popularity. They looked at how it was being used, how it fared against other people. Still things that can be described in statistics, but more telling of the tale of why things turned out that way rather than saying "Well.. this ship isn't being used enough. Lets buff it." No, it was "why isn't this ship being used" and they went looking for the answers. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 06:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Regardless, popularity is one of the major metrics that CCP uses to detect imbalances, and rightly so, because nobody can perfectly weight every combination of incomparable stats, so the best you can do is find empirical evidence (i.e. usage statistics). And yet Fozzie was able to pinpoint some of the reasons. Players are able to pinpoint why these things are better than others. The balance isn't off because the popularity. They become popular because the balance is off. I'm not saying otherwise. Popularity is how you detect imbalances. Figuring out why they're popular is the first step in Fixing the problem. Popularity is the primary evidence that you have a problem. And a theoretical problem that has no evidence suggesting a problem in practice is evidence that your theory is wrong (look at all the EFT warrior fits that crash and burn in actual testing).
Its not really foolproof evidence though is the thing. There are a lot of potential causes for something to become popular... hell, if you start using popularity as evidence of things, you could use it to say Twilight was good *shivers* and we don't want that. There are also times where something could be widely thought of as underpowered and thus underplayed, but in the hands of someone who is able to get past what people find to make it underpowered, they find it to be one of the most powerful things in the game. I can think of a few times that's happened. Meepo in DOTA 2 being one (who I suck royally with to be perfectly honest), so you also have to look at is it maybe just difficult to play, and if something being difficult to play is an imbalance when the players who do well with it pretty much outperform everyone else. Granted, some people would consider something being harder to play a balance issue in itself, but that's up to debate and its just one example. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 07:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Couldn't really tell you if there's an EVE example, haven't seen enough, but the point still stands. Anyways, you may not have said its full proof evidence, but this whole conversation started because someone else did, which ultimately was the whole issue of why this is even a thing. |
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